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Salary Negotiation Post - Retraction
Tuesday June 15, 2010This post has been retracted.
A message from DailyWorth founder Amanda Steinberg:
When I started DailyWorth, I had a lot of goals in mind. Among them was the desire to help women become great negotiators by learning the tricks of the trade. Another was to address money taboos head on, even if the discussion became controversial. Finally, we vowed never to be boring or formulaic.
When we released this post, we knew it would spark heated debate. And it did. We've heard from a number of HR personnel in the DailyWorth community that even slight salary history inflations are illegal and could jeopardize your job application.
Update from New York Times coverage of this situation: "While inflating your salary may not be a criminal offense that can land you in jail (assuming you don’t inflate your salary under oath or under penalty of perjury), it still can be a civil law issue. Specifically, according to Della Barnett, a plaintiffs’ employment attorney in California, “Affirmative misrepresentation of a material fact can be construed as fraud” and your potential future employer could sue you for it."
At the same time, we also heard from at least one recruiter who admitted that she was trained to make the lowest salary offer first. "Men always negotiated more. It pained me when women would always accept the first offer."
After considerable soul-searching, we have decided to retract the post, rather than jeopardize anyone's job. But we regret that the larger point--that women stand to gain financially by the simple act of Asking--was overshadowed by this controversy.
Many thanks those of you who constructively and thoughtfully shared your opinions with us.
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A Little White Lie in Salary NegotiationEllen O'Hara is a book editor in New York City. |
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Written by Holly, June 15, 2010
I'm sorry, but lying is wrong. Asking for more money is fine, but lying about what you're currently making is no different from lying about qualifications or any other thing you might tell a prospective employer. My integrity is worth more than $5,000.
Written by MG, June 15, 2010
I would not inflate my income to a future employer or a recruiter. If they ask to see a copy of last year's W2 or attempt to verify the information as part of your background check - you have just proven that you are dishonest.
My recommended approach is 100% honesty and if your previous salary was too low, explain how you were compensated in *other* ways by your last employer, for example: The opportunity to prove yourself. Now that you HAVE proven yourself, you can charge the higher rate.
My recommended approach is 100% honesty and if your previous salary was too low, explain how you were compensated in *other* ways by your last employer, for example: The opportunity to prove yourself. Now that you HAVE proven yourself, you can charge the higher rate.
Written by tara gentile, June 15, 2010
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with the commenter above. It's not so much a lie as a negotiation. You can bet that that company was "negotiating" when it offered that first salary. They knew full well that there was a higher number they were willing to go - even EXPECTING to have to offer. But they chose to offer the lower one in hopes that they would get away with it.
When corporations are trying to play us every day, I think it is a-okay to play the game yourself.
When corporations are trying to play us every day, I think it is a-okay to play the game yourself.
Written by KB, June 15, 2010
Holly, please don't be a "nice" girl like the article, please don't apologize for how you feel. I kind of agree with you in that I wouldn't lie about my current salary. That makes me feel uncomfortable. I would just ask for the higher salary because after all, weren't we encouraged a while back to ask for the $.30 more?
Written by Lauren, June 15, 2010
I honestly haven't been to many interviews, but I don't purposely inflate my salary. I'll round it up because I have no memory for numbers, and I have no problem letting the interviewer know what I'm hoping to make. However, I also have a habit of getting extremely excited about a job and taking it no matter what the salary is because I'll enjoy it.
Written by Charlotte, June 15, 2010
I'm not sure it's fair for them to ask that. They shouldn't be basing their offer on what you are currently paid. If they thought she was worth the extra $10,000 then she deserves it.
Written by Michele, June 15, 2010
i was very disappointed that you would suggest lieing. Most companies do background checks and do verify salary. We withdraw offers from people who lie about their salary. The part of the article that talks about being assertive and asking for more - that is right on. But do it in an upfront and ethical way. Don't lie to get more cause it will come back to bite you at some point.
Written by Sunny, June 15, 2010
I definitely cut myself short in the money department, b/c (a) although I like it a lot, I have made work decisions based on doing what I love rather than on a salary, (b) I look for the minimum amount I need to get by with my current lifestyle - I know, this isn't smart thinking!, and (c) talking about money is awkward. And, I have been in sales for a long time - asking for the close never gets easier. This article inspires me to ask for what I'm worth!
Written by D.L.R., June 15, 2010
I hate the term "white lie". It sure puts an unethical spin on your time, effort and motivation to grow yourself and career by applying and interviewing for a new position. Realizing it is in response to a direct question, I would consider it more of combination of salary and benefits type of response. In other words, my salary costs my company X amount of dollars in salary and XX% in benefits. therefore, it does not become a "white lie" but in fact, a very straightforward and ethical response.
Written by M, June 15, 2010
While I give kudos to the author of this post for her raise, I think it is a terrible idea to give a white lie about your salary. The HR personnel may verify what your current salary with your employer, and if there is any fudging, you could lose your job offer. Instead, I think it is a much better idea to give the amount of your total compensation package (which includes your benefits). Your total compensation is usually a higher number than some random white lie, and it can also be verified by your HR Department. This also takes into account all of the benefits that you have - this might not be money in the bank, but your benefits are certainly valuable and should also be used to negotiate a new position.
Written by KC, June 15, 2010
I think you're all incredibly naive, and probably underpaid. There's a huge difference between blatant lying and little white lies around how much you earn. Many employers DO base new offers on past pay, they DON'T verify (though they might, so yes, something to consider) and it's how the game is played. Period. You have to use whatever means possible to maximize your negotiations and I guarantee most successful and highly paid men inflate their past earnings. I'd bet one month's pay on it :)
p.s. I don't think DailyWorth is advocating one way or the other -- they're asking us to have a frank conversation about a very important topic - once that might be the difference in you being able to afford your life and retirement or not.
p.s. I don't think DailyWorth is advocating one way or the other -- they're asking us to have a frank conversation about a very important topic - once that might be the difference in you being able to afford your life and retirement or not.
Written by suellen roley, June 15, 2010
I am coming from a different point of view as I've basically been unemployed for the last 5 years==I have no salary to 'lie' about.
I already know even the 'high-end' employers in this town won't match what I made at my last jobs (in a different area of the same state) so I don't even ask for the $13.00 per hour I was earning in 2004-2005. I'm happy if the job pays over minimum wage ($8.40 per hour here in Oregon)
I already know even the 'high-end' employers in this town won't match what I made at my last jobs (in a different area of the same state) so I don't even ask for the $13.00 per hour I was earning in 2004-2005. I'm happy if the job pays over minimum wage ($8.40 per hour here in Oregon)
Written by Victoria Drake, June 15, 2010
That's not my definition of strong and assertive, that's my definition of underhanded lying. Strong and assertive is being honest about what you make and asking for a salary increase in your new job. What you're a whimp about is being truthful.
Written by angela, June 15, 2010
Just as employers invest in their employees, individuals invest in their jobs/careers. Making a change is rarely taken lightly. Therefore, a prospective employer who wants to be taken seriously expects to offer a salary increase of 10 - 20%. If it's not offered up front, it's certainly worth asking for!
The last time I made a leap, I developed a grid of salary, benefits, bonus and other areas of compensation. I asked the recruiter to help me fill in the blanks and understand not only what my new benefits would be like, but also my total compensation. That way, we were able to come up with an attractive salary increase plus a signing bonus.
The last time I made a leap, I developed a grid of salary, benefits, bonus and other areas of compensation. I asked the recruiter to help me fill in the blanks and understand not only what my new benefits would be like, but also my total compensation. That way, we were able to come up with an attractive salary increase plus a signing bonus.
Written by John, June 15, 2010
I think it's a 'toss-up'saying what you'd like or think you deserve. I was terminated from a job at almost $17.00/hr. I got a job at a nearby charity facility for minimum wage,and have been looking elsewhere also. On my apps i've put my current pay and also what i've made in the past and I guess i'm not sure if they'll offer the higher or lower current pay. In the current market I guess I feel ANYTHING is better than NOTHING!! And the employer knows it. So far i've been offered nothing.
Written by Jeanne Yocum, June 15, 2010
So a successful colleague tells you "Everyone does it" and that's your excuse for lying? Tons of people also lie on their resumes, but that doesn't make it right. Starting off your relationship with an employer with a lie and then bragging about it online doesn't sound like a good policy to me, assuming you were using your actual name.
If you wanted to inflate your salary, one approach may be (assuming it's in any way accurate): "I currently make X dollars, but I have an annual performance review coming up shortly and based on past experience, I expect to get X dollars as a raise."
If you wanted to inflate your salary, one approach may be (assuming it's in any way accurate): "I currently make X dollars, but I have an annual performance review coming up shortly and based on past experience, I expect to get X dollars as a raise."
Written by Kassie, June 15, 2010
Since my income is public information I'd be an idiot to lie when they can type my name into the computer and get exactly what I made last year.
Written by Eric Werner, June 15, 2010
I do not tell them what I'm making currently. I explain that what would make sense would be take into consideration my expertise and the amount of value that they expect me to add in this role and based on that define a range that would work for both parties.
They will usually try to tell me that we can't go any further in the process until I tell them what I make currently, or they say that I'm going to have to fill out an application eventually and then I'll have to tell them. Whatever. It's a sham. If they want you then those little rules go out
If you tell them what you're currently making then you are just demonstrating to them that you're not a very good negotiator.
They will usually try to tell me that we can't go any further in the process until I tell them what I make currently, or they say that I'm going to have to fill out an application eventually and then I'll have to tell them. Whatever. It's a sham. If they want you then those little rules go out
If you tell them what you're currently making then you are just demonstrating to them that you're not a very good negotiator.
Written by Alison Armstrong, June 15, 2010
Are there consequences for signing your name on an application where you have indicated that your salary was higher than it was? You're signing your name to a legal document knowing that you're not telling the truth. I know of companies who do background checks years later (based on information they have found out after the fact) and terminate employees for lies on their resumes/applications - even in they've already worked there for years. I understand where you're coming from, but I think you're playing with fire.
Written by Suzanne, June 15, 2010
I work with women on salary negotiation in my class for women jobseekers.
One strategy that a participant had was factoring ALL of her various perks into her compensation number when asked her current salary. If her company had a gym reimbursement policy of $1,000/year then she would factor that into her salary. Same for travel reimbursement.
One strategy that a participant had was factoring ALL of her various perks into her compensation number when asked her current salary. If her company had a gym reimbursement policy of $1,000/year then she would factor that into her salary. Same for travel reimbursement.
Written by Einat, June 15, 2010
I also disagree. It may depend on industry and city but my recruiter had me send her W2s from the past three years. If I was caught in a lie, they wouldn't work with me! Many employers will verify and fact check.
I would tread cautiously advising readers to act unethically.
I would tread cautiously advising readers to act unethically.
Written by Kat, June 15, 2010
It's definitely a matter of the package. When asked about your current salary, include *every* perk you get - bonus, extra days off (like your birthday), potential maternity leave top-up, gym membership, freebies - and that's your package. Then round up to the nearest $5K or $10K. "What is your current salary?" "My current package is worth about $50K." This isn't lying, this is valuing what you have.
As for expecting a raise, it depends on whether you're moving up or sideways and whether you were fairly compensated in your last/current job. Don't forget HR depts always have a "range" for positions - you might have started at the beginning of that range and have proven yourself worth more than that if you're very competent at what you do. Always tell the hiring manager what salary range you're looking for, and don't shoot too low. I've never had them turn me away, even if their budget is lower than what you're asking for.
As for expecting a raise, it depends on whether you're moving up or sideways and whether you were fairly compensated in your last/current job. Don't forget HR depts always have a "range" for positions - you might have started at the beginning of that range and have proven yourself worth more than that if you're very competent at what you do. Always tell the hiring manager what salary range you're looking for, and don't shoot too low. I've never had them turn me away, even if their budget is lower than what you're asking for.
Written by Carla Bobka, June 15, 2010
Let's move away from the lie vs. don't lie conversation and move back to the real question. The hiring manager has made an inquiry and phrased the question in a specific way to his advantage. You need to answer to your advantage. His question was what you need to make to make the job attractive to you- he's made an assumption you are willing to take it for what you are currently making. There is no reason you should make a job change, learn new processes and responsibilities just to maintain your current salary. Tell the hiring manager or recruiter, "I need to earn $xx to make this worth my while." Then be silent, and wait while the ball is in his court.
Written by Pamela Trow-Johnson, June 15, 2010
I think the need to lie about what we're making and the relationship to what we ask for as a salary is a symptom of low self-esteem. We need to not take this personally, instead, look at this as "doing business" and not appointing a number to define our success. Hey, easy said than done, I know. I'm self-employed and am constantly under-pricing myself. BUT I can say, when I've mustered up the strength to be willing to not take on work if I wasn't going to paid fairly, I've never been so exhilarated! I also know that the economy has a way of creating fear but I really think it's a choice on how we want to perceive the process. The one good thing about this bad economy is it's creating an awareness of how we have done things, no longer works. It's a time where we can do things differently...such as believe we can get what we're worth!
Written by Roxanne, June 15, 2010
Your current salary is nobody's business, and it shouldn't be the basis for salary negotiation in a new position. The new job should have a value placed on it by the employer, and that is what they should offer you. Eight years ago, I accepted a lower salary than I was already earning, for a move that took me to not only another city but another country. My negotiation skills were clearly very poor. All I could summon the courage to do was ask for $2000 more than they offered, which they agreed to. Later, I found out that people at the same level were paid more than I was (most were men) for the same or less experience level and responsibilities.
It took me 5 years before I got back to the salary level that I was at originally. Never again. The last time I changed jobs, all I said was the range that my salary was in - high 40's - rather than the specific number when I was asked. The salary offer was about $10,000 more than I was earning at my old job. That was enough to convince me to change jobs. Next time, I will do the same thing.
It took me 5 years before I got back to the salary level that I was at originally. Never again. The last time I changed jobs, all I said was the range that my salary was in - high 40's - rather than the specific number when I was asked. The salary offer was about $10,000 more than I was earning at my old job. That was enough to convince me to change jobs. Next time, I will do the same thing.
Written by Keith S, June 15, 2010
Advocating lying in this situation is a big mistake, it's not in your self-interest to lie and it's completely unnecessary! The exact same conversation could ensue without ever having lied. You can explain to the person what salary you are looking to make and that one of the aspects that has made you unhappy about your current job is that you feel the salary does not reflect your contribution to the organization and explain all the reasons why. Your thoughtfulness and insight will actually earn you respect.
To start a new job on a lie is a terrible idea. Not only would it have the potential to undermine your entire relationship if your new employer discovered that you lied, but think about what it does to your view of your self. Do you think your value is so unrecognizable that others can't acknowledge it? You should be proud of your contributions and ability and highlight those for others who are making an evaluation of your worth. And do you really think so low of this new employer that you've already concluded they won't be able to recognize your value? If so, are you sure this is the company for you. And if this really is a company you want to work for, they're likely to speak with your current employer and verify salary information during the reference check, you could undermine the entire opportunity.
To start a new job on a lie is a terrible idea. Not only would it have the potential to undermine your entire relationship if your new employer discovered that you lied, but think about what it does to your view of your self. Do you think your value is so unrecognizable that others can't acknowledge it? You should be proud of your contributions and ability and highlight those for others who are making an evaluation of your worth. And do you really think so low of this new employer that you've already concluded they won't be able to recognize your value? If so, are you sure this is the company for you. And if this really is a company you want to work for, they're likely to speak with your current employer and verify salary information during the reference check, you could undermine the entire opportunity.
Written by Thelma, June 15, 2010
I believe that lieing is wrong! Having said that, what is your worth to your current employer? Do you skip lunches to get the job done? How much vaca time do you have built up? When I left one job I had 4 weeks a year, next job 2. What is that worth? Final thought: You could leave a job with security to take a job that you could be cut after one week or even one day....what is that worth? They will not pay you more than you are worth to them. Why do they need to know what you currently make?
Written by Kathy, June 15, 2010
I don't feel bumping up your salary is ethical. It's a flat out lie. They may check your past salary and experience and you just may loose a job due to this unethical lie. It's not wrong to ask for more when leaving a job, most people leave for more money, but not to inflate what you currently make. if you lie about this what else may you lie about? If you are caught, you just lost your job, and if found out after hired, then you've out all jobs and on the unemployment line.
Written by Petunia, June 15, 2010
Is "Ellen O'Hara" a fictitious name? If not, what if the new employer reads this piece?
Written by Tania, June 15, 2010
BAD IDEA. 95% of employers actually check previous salaries. In most cases lying about your current / previous salary will get you booted from the list of potential candidates. Most companies understand that you are not interested in making a lateral move, so go ahead and ask for more. Worst they can do is say no.
Written by Eden, June 15, 2010
I don't see any harm at all in firmly stating that you want a higher salary than what you are making; saying "I'm looking to make at least $x" is probably better than getting caught inflating your salary. I don't see it as wrong or unethical though- they obviously thought she was worth the money if they hired her despite the higher amount she was asking for. (The 5k.)
Written by Melissa, June 15, 2010
Just wanted to say that I HAVE asked for a raise. Many women don't, but when my boss asked me to take on a few new responsibilities I had no qualms replying with "sure - but please keep that in mind when it comes annual review time." and he did. And so I got a raise during a year no one else at our company did.
It never hurts to ask, so long as you keep it polite and don't make it a "I need more money or I'm leaving" type of conversation (unless you're ready to leave).
It never hurts to ask, so long as you keep it polite and don't make it a "I need more money or I'm leaving" type of conversation (unless you're ready to leave).
Written by Leanne, June 15, 2010
If you factor in benefits such as paid leave, annual vacation, paid medical leave, paid holidays, retirement, overtime, tax (accounting) serivces - ect ... added to base salary, that little white lie is not really a lie at all ... figure a benefits package is worth an additional 30-40% of current salary.
Written by jenifer daniels, June 15, 2010
1st - you should NEVER tell anyone how much you make anyway. you give them a salary scale based on your qualifications + experience for the job that you want.
2nd- how do you ever plan to be properly compensated for a job if you tell someone "I only make $5" - umm, hello?
this is why WOMEN make 75% of what men make. it's not that we aren't as qualified, it's that we don't ask.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read this book and get over yourselves for thinking that you are being dishonest. [Women don't ask : the high cost of avoiding negotiation-- and positive strategies for change by Babcock, Linda]
(BTW, the company will always offer you the lowest amount they want to pay you EVEN THOUGH they have it budgeted for much more - are they lying too?)
2nd- how do you ever plan to be properly compensated for a job if you tell someone "I only make $5" - umm, hello?
this is why WOMEN make 75% of what men make. it's not that we aren't as qualified, it's that we don't ask.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read this book and get over yourselves for thinking that you are being dishonest. [Women don't ask : the high cost of avoiding negotiation-- and positive strategies for change by Babcock, Linda]
(BTW, the company will always offer you the lowest amount they want to pay you EVEN THOUGH they have it budgeted for much more - are they lying too?)
Written by jenifer daniels, June 15, 2010
@Tania - EMPLOYERS DO NOT CHECK YOUR SALARY. period. that information is classified personnel status. (unless you work for a govt entity where your salary is available by FOIA)
really, where are you all getting your information from? an future employer can only verify that you have WORKED for the organization (or that you were fired) and that you can work legally in the US.
If YOU GIVE THEM PERMISSION they can check your salary history (based on IRS records) & perform a credit check.
really, where are you all getting your information from? an future employer can only verify that you have WORKED for the organization (or that you were fired) and that you can work legally in the US.
If YOU GIVE THEM PERMISSION they can check your salary history (based on IRS records) & perform a credit check.
Written by Kenia, June 15, 2010
With enough charm & suave attitude, can I counter "What is your current salary?" with, "Fair question. May I ask YOU, what do you have budgeted for this position?" Now, at least, both parties are in positions to (hopefully) be truthful to each other.
Written by anney, June 15, 2010
Wow I had no idea women were so naive. This is business. Lying happens in business ALL THE TIME. When it comes to making what you're worth and making a living in this day and age of high inflation, you have to do what you have to do.
If I had been honest about my previous salaries, I would never have advanced to where I am at today: paid exactly what my male counterparts are being paid for the same work. I did what I had to do because a few jobs ago, I was MANAGING a man who was making more than me! (I only found out after we quit as he was my friend and he felt bad about it.) I went on to increase my salary by $15K that year. And guess what? It was right on par with the average salary for the position.
The truth is ladies, if companies don't want to pay you what you ask for, they won't hire you or extend an offer. That's fine by me. If I am upgrading my job, I will wait until I find a company that is willing to pay me what my skills and experience are worth. If I am unemployed and desperate, yes then I will for sure take that into consideration (as I have done in the past) and take a lower salary for the right job.
But honestly, you will never get anywhere if all you advance is $5000 every time you switch jobs. And what is that? Every few years?? You'll hardly keep up with inflation! This is exactly why women are SO underpaid!
Oh and for the record, no one has EVER checked on my past salaries. I'm not saying it won't be done, but it's never happened in my industry.
If I had been honest about my previous salaries, I would never have advanced to where I am at today: paid exactly what my male counterparts are being paid for the same work. I did what I had to do because a few jobs ago, I was MANAGING a man who was making more than me! (I only found out after we quit as he was my friend and he felt bad about it.) I went on to increase my salary by $15K that year. And guess what? It was right on par with the average salary for the position.
The truth is ladies, if companies don't want to pay you what you ask for, they won't hire you or extend an offer. That's fine by me. If I am upgrading my job, I will wait until I find a company that is willing to pay me what my skills and experience are worth. If I am unemployed and desperate, yes then I will for sure take that into consideration (as I have done in the past) and take a lower salary for the right job.
But honestly, you will never get anywhere if all you advance is $5000 every time you switch jobs. And what is that? Every few years?? You'll hardly keep up with inflation! This is exactly why women are SO underpaid!
Oh and for the record, no one has EVER checked on my past salaries. I'm not saying it won't be done, but it's never happened in my industry.
Written by Cyndi Carpluk, June 15, 2010
A lie is a lie is a lie. If you will compromise on this, what else will you lie about? It shows a lack of integrity, not a gain of confidence or assertiveness. A truly assertive person asks for what they want, they don't lie, trick or manipulate their way into a bigger or better lifestyle. It will come back to bite you, it always does.
Written by F. Cummings, June 15, 2010
I've always worked in fashion but in many different parts of the industry and none have ever checked my salary. I had always heard that you are limited what you can ask someone as far as for a reference check as in these litigious times the company would risk a slander lawsuit for saying negative things.
But really, why does it matter? I would never switch a job unless I felt as if the new one offered me better compensation. And so I let the hiring manager know what type of salary I would be expecting in order for me to work for them, period. And I come prepared to explain why I'm a candidate who is worth that much. If I was getting hired doing the same thing then I would think my years of the experience at my last job made me worth more, and I should be making at the higher end of what people make in that position. Besides--how much money does the company save by hiring someone who doesn't require training?
If lying is your only option, I could see using it to secure yourself a better salary. I don't think you'd be condemned to a life of dishonesty for doing so. But why lie if you don't need to? And I don't think it should be confused with assertiveness. Assertive people ask for what they want.
But really, why does it matter? I would never switch a job unless I felt as if the new one offered me better compensation. And so I let the hiring manager know what type of salary I would be expecting in order for me to work for them, period. And I come prepared to explain why I'm a candidate who is worth that much. If I was getting hired doing the same thing then I would think my years of the experience at my last job made me worth more, and I should be making at the higher end of what people make in that position. Besides--how much money does the company save by hiring someone who doesn't require training?
If lying is your only option, I could see using it to secure yourself a better salary. I don't think you'd be condemned to a life of dishonesty for doing so. But why lie if you don't need to? And I don't think it should be confused with assertiveness. Assertive people ask for what they want.
Written by christine, June 15, 2010
Wow ladies this is a heated topic. First off, I think we need to watch our "judgment", to be honest, and come from a different energy. We need to support our sisters and not take a high and mighty stance b/c we are not in the authors shoes. To suggest "lack of integrity" or other highly judgmental comments is no better than the person you are judging.
Secondly, here is what I know from years in the fashion business, the way to get a raise is to switch jobs and state your salary requirements. It is not anyone's business to know what you are currently making and going back an forth is part of the game.
Secondly, here is what I know from years in the fashion business, the way to get a raise is to switch jobs and state your salary requirements. It is not anyone's business to know what you are currently making and going back an forth is part of the game.
Written by Christine H, June 15, 2010
I used to work in Human Resources. I made job offers to candidates all the time. I was told to always offer the lower amount - period. I had a range and I couldn't go over that range (although there were times when I did and guess which gender it went to). The men ALWAYS negotiated their salaries and ALWAYS got more. The women NEVER negotiated their salaries. It used to pain me to hear women accept the first offer. Women are TOO honest in business. I wouldn't give an EXACT salary amount either. I would do as someone suggested and include everything gym membership, etc. in my salary package and then round up to the nearest 5k. We never checked on someone's prior salary. It's really none of our business. If we can afford the candidate and want them, then great. If not, then they go on their merry way which RARELY happened.
Written by Sophie, June 16, 2010
Not two jobs are alike so your previous salary doesn't relate in full to what you will do in your new role. I very much like the ideas about calculating package value (and similarly when reviewing a job offer, calculate if you're not getting $$$ out of company benefits rather than just focus on the hard cash). I disagree to the little white lie, although it served its purpose it's not a very healthy start in a new company.
I think taking the "what do I want" approach and asking for it is the healthier, more sustainable and most long-term-healthy option.
It does take assertiveness but you'd be suprised at how rewarding this can be. And if the job you're going for states a salary bracket, ask for the higher end of it: it's already been budgeted and approved so all it takes is someone to go and grab it.
Cheering for all women who go in and negociate their salary, that's the way forward.
I think taking the "what do I want" approach and asking for it is the healthier, more sustainable and most long-term-healthy option.
It does take assertiveness but you'd be suprised at how rewarding this can be. And if the job you're going for states a salary bracket, ask for the higher end of it: it's already been budgeted and approved so all it takes is someone to go and grab it.
Cheering for all women who go in and negociate their salary, that's the way forward.
Written by Nancy, June 16, 2010
As the wife of an executive recruiter, I can tell you heart breaking stories of how "that little white lie" closed the doors to potentially wonderful opportunities for many professionals. Today, most companies, (Fortune 500s) check EVERYTHING! Degrees awarded, salaries, arrest records....very little remains unchecked. I am all in favor of NEGOTIATION, a true art, but NOT when it is based upon lie(s). lying is not negotiation.
Written by Real Life, June 16, 2010
Everybody wants the best buck. The employer wants efficient, cheap labor. Why not get the best value you can for your talents.
Written by KelleyZ, June 16, 2010
I am in human resource - and have been for over 20 years. I know applicants lie about their current salary, which is why I check on salaries when deciding whether or not to offer a job to someone. When you sign the application, it gives the hiring company the ability to check your salary - either before or after you are hired. If a new employee (already hired and on the job)is found to have lied in any part of the interview cycle, I can terminate them, and I often do.
I find it appalling that anyone would advocate lying for any reason. If you want to make more money, tell the recruiter in the interview that you want to make more money. If they were willing to pay $5K more than your inflated salary, then they were willing to pay $10K more than your actual.
Companies hire to a budget. They don't just throw a dart and decide what to pay based on what the applicant says. They need to be concerned about keeping in line with market salaries and maintaining internal equity within their own walls. Your "little white lie" did not make them change the budget for which they had set for this position. It did introduce a risk that you could be terminated for falsification of information during your interview. I would expect greater integrity from my employees.
I find it appalling that anyone would advocate lying for any reason. If you want to make more money, tell the recruiter in the interview that you want to make more money. If they were willing to pay $5K more than your inflated salary, then they were willing to pay $10K more than your actual.
Companies hire to a budget. They don't just throw a dart and decide what to pay based on what the applicant says. They need to be concerned about keeping in line with market salaries and maintaining internal equity within their own walls. Your "little white lie" did not make them change the budget for which they had set for this position. It did introduce a risk that you could be terminated for falsification of information during your interview. I would expect greater integrity from my employees.
Written by LoMo, June 16, 2010
I thought EVERYBODY knew that companies check your salary history. Ridiculous. I would not compromise my integrity or ruin my chances of getting a job like that. Like someone stated above, companies have a budgeted amount for these positions! Daily Worth; shame shame for putting this on here as 'advice'.
Written by Amanda (DailyWorth Founder), June 16, 2010
Hi everyone,
When I started DailyWorth, I had a lot of goals in mind (many of which still hold today). Among them was the desire to help women become great negotiators by learning the tricks of the trade. Another was to address money taboos head on, even if the discussion was to become controversial. Finally, we swore we'd try not to be boring or formulaic.
When we developed this post, we knew it would spark heated debate, but we didn't realize how negatively this would be received. We've heard from a number of HR executives in the DailyWorth community that even slight salary inflations are illegal and could jeopardize your job opportunity, and to that extent, we will be retracting this post completely.
Unlike certain TV personalities you may watch, we willingly present ourselves as flawed human beings that will make mistakes from time to time - this certainly will not be the last.
To that end, thanks to those of you who constructively and thoughtfully shared your opinions with us. I'm pleased that so many of us are now savvier and smarter on the subject of "salary history" in the context of negotiations.
When I started DailyWorth, I had a lot of goals in mind (many of which still hold today). Among them was the desire to help women become great negotiators by learning the tricks of the trade. Another was to address money taboos head on, even if the discussion was to become controversial. Finally, we swore we'd try not to be boring or formulaic.
When we developed this post, we knew it would spark heated debate, but we didn't realize how negatively this would be received. We've heard from a number of HR executives in the DailyWorth community that even slight salary inflations are illegal and could jeopardize your job opportunity, and to that extent, we will be retracting this post completely.
Unlike certain TV personalities you may watch, we willingly present ourselves as flawed human beings that will make mistakes from time to time - this certainly will not be the last.
To that end, thanks to those of you who constructively and thoughtfully shared your opinions with us. I'm pleased that so many of us are now savvier and smarter on the subject of "salary history" in the context of negotiations.
Written by kathy, June 16, 2010
I am so glad you retracted that article-I was appalled. It is true that women are passive in looking out for themselves and negotiating, and it is challenging for many women to be assertive in the work place, BUT, lying is lying and as some of the other posts pointed out, where are you if they check. Honesty is ALWAYS the best policy!
Written by Mallory Hall, June 16, 2010
Although I thought the retraction was well-written and to the point, I don't agree with removing this post. It is a real issue. Considering the amount of debate it ignited (on both sides of the fence), it is something women must want to talk about. We aren't trying to avoid being controversial are we? That is no fun.
Written by Amanda (DailyWorth Founder), June 16, 2010
Hi Mallory - we had to retract it, in addition to white lies being unethical, simply because it could put a job seeker's search at risk. Note that we did not unpublish it - we've left it here for all the world to see 1) because we want to be transparent about our mistakes and 2) because yes, there is still a lot of value to be gained from engaging in this conversation and by leaving it here, women can continue to discuss.
Written by C. B. Roque, June 16, 2010
Kudos on the retraction - the suggestion to lie was an understandable misstep, but ethics should always prevail. And no worries about the criticism. Someone wise once told me that "these moments are not what define us, but our response to them certainly does." Keep up the great work.
Written by Alison, June 16, 2010
Funny, I was just discussing this blog post at lunch today with a girlfriend. We came to the same conclusion - it's illegal to be dishonest about your salary and could cost you a future job. The message about "asking" and "pushing for more" is on target. I'm not surprised HR folks and others were quick to point out that basic background checks these days will quickly uncover dishonesty.
Written by Megan, June 16, 2010
Amanda, I'm truly disappointed that you pulled this article. These HR executives you mention have every reason to make people believe that challenging their status quo (and costing them more money) is "illegal." But in fact, salary discussions are a form of negotiation and these HR executives certainly aren't volunteering to tell you the salary range they would accept, and they won't tell you what they're paying current employees in that position. Their goal is simple: get you to take the job for as little money as possible.
I would guess that all of these 'cannot tell a lie' commenters above are probably the same people who walk into a car dealership and buy a car for the asking price. No wonder so many of us women are underpaid. In salary negotiations, playing it straight doesn't make you a paragon of virtue...it makes you a SUCKER.
I would guess that all of these 'cannot tell a lie' commenters above are probably the same people who walk into a car dealership and buy a car for the asking price. No wonder so many of us women are underpaid. In salary negotiations, playing it straight doesn't make you a paragon of virtue...it makes you a SUCKER.
Written by Stephanie, June 16, 2010
I am disappointed you pulled the article. Truly, you should not lie. However, I am like a lot of women who do not ask and therefore don't receive. I found it to be thought provoking.
Written by Mary, June 16, 2010
Kudos on the retraction. I wouldn't lie about my salary, but I see the greater point: women need to ask. I enjoyed the controversy, I enjoy the posts, keep up the good work!
Written by Kelly, June 16, 2010
Why would a company for whom I do not work have any right to know my personal business (current salary)
They wouldn't provide me with the amount the highest paid employee in the position is currently making, now would they.
there is no reason to answer the question of what you make today, you are well within your rights to offer a range. I would love to see the legality of this question debated here.
Thanks
They wouldn't provide me with the amount the highest paid employee in the position is currently making, now would they.
there is no reason to answer the question of what you make today, you are well within your rights to offer a range. I would love to see the legality of this question debated here.
Thanks
Written by Wendy, June 16, 2010
Daily Worth - thanks for provoking women to close the wage gap!
I agree that it is neither ethical nor legally prudent to lie on your job application.
Yet closing the gender wage gap is critical, and empowering ourselves as women to ASK for a higher salary is an important first step. Thank you to your author who encouraged us to do so.
BUT the research on salary negotiations is more complicated to just tell women to ASK for a higher salary. Research finds that even when women ask, they can get less than men (Rynes and Gerhart (1991(found that by asking, men's salary increased an average of 4.3%, while women's only increased 2.7%). Research also finds that women are penalized more then men being aggressive in negotiations (see e.g. Bowles, Babcock, and Lai, 2007).
So, while as women we should ASK for higher salaries, I'm curious to hear more about strategies about HOW to do so effectively.
I agree that it is neither ethical nor legally prudent to lie on your job application.
Yet closing the gender wage gap is critical, and empowering ourselves as women to ASK for a higher salary is an important first step. Thank you to your author who encouraged us to do so.
BUT the research on salary negotiations is more complicated to just tell women to ASK for a higher salary. Research finds that even when women ask, they can get less than men (Rynes and Gerhart (1991(found that by asking, men's salary increased an average of 4.3%, while women's only increased 2.7%). Research also finds that women are penalized more then men being aggressive in negotiations (see e.g. Bowles, Babcock, and Lai, 2007).
So, while as women we should ASK for higher salaries, I'm curious to hear more about strategies about HOW to do so effectively.
Written by Kathleen , June 16, 2010
I am an Executive Recruiter with over 15 years of experience. A recruiter is paid a percentage of salary she negotiates for her candidate by the company she places them with...which means I want to make the best deal possible for my candidate. On an executive level, salaries are approved by the board of directors. They have to meet, negotiate among themselves and put together a package that will attract the best possible candidate....otherwise that candidate could wind up with their competition. Even in this market,I see companies putting together their best efforts up front...and yes, Virginia they do check previous salary history.
I specialize in the insurance industry and I can tell you women make comparable salaries to the men...it's their expertise that counts. They can also rise to the highest corporate levels, receiving compensation packages that are the same as men. It's my business to know what those salaries are to help my negotiations stay fair. A company won't work with me if I get ridiculously high and they know they won't be able to keep a candidate if they are ridiculously low.
My suggestion is this ..and it is one I offered to my previous employer when I joined the firm: I told him I wanted about 20% more than he offered, but I would work at the amount he offered for 30 days. If at the end of those 30 days I had not proven I was worth the higher amount we would leave my salary at the original amount. If i proved I was worth the higher amount, he would change my salary RETROACTIVELY and permanently to cover the previous 30 days.
Ladies, I got my raise, my difference in pay and an instant promotion from the rather boring job he had hired me for. Try an honest negotiation like that and you may wind up with more than you asked for and be able to sleep with yourself.
I specialize in the insurance industry and I can tell you women make comparable salaries to the men...it's their expertise that counts. They can also rise to the highest corporate levels, receiving compensation packages that are the same as men. It's my business to know what those salaries are to help my negotiations stay fair. A company won't work with me if I get ridiculously high and they know they won't be able to keep a candidate if they are ridiculously low.
My suggestion is this ..and it is one I offered to my previous employer when I joined the firm: I told him I wanted about 20% more than he offered, but I would work at the amount he offered for 30 days. If at the end of those 30 days I had not proven I was worth the higher amount we would leave my salary at the original amount. If i proved I was worth the higher amount, he would change my salary RETROACTIVELY and permanently to cover the previous 30 days.
Ladies, I got my raise, my difference in pay and an instant promotion from the rather boring job he had hired me for. Try an honest negotiation like that and you may wind up with more than you asked for and be able to sleep with yourself.
Written by Tom, June 16, 2010
Oh for god's sake -- exaggerating your income is one of the most widespread white lies on the planet. The notion that it's "illegal" is a laughably empty, but effective, bullying threat. Is the company legally obligated to provide the salary range for the position? Companies never answer this question honestly, so neither should you. The company expects you to negotiate salary to demonstrate you're worth. Companies want people who can negotiate maximum value on the company's behalf. Failing to negotiate is a mistake, the company will be disappointed, and you start your job with a black mark. Chances are in your previous job you were below-market due to history/inertia/whatever; there's absolutely NO reason under "law" that you are somehow obligated to be stuck there. Every job has a "maximum salary" pre-budgeted; it is up to you to negotiate as far as you can to get there.
Written by Petunia, June 16, 2010
I think it is fabulous that this site is getting out the message that it is OK to ask for what you want, and to be paid what you are worth (in the marketplace). Women do not negotiate because they don't really believe that they are valuable. I think it is counterproductive to suggest that you must lie in order to be paid what you are worth. The implied message is that you're not really all that valuable, you're not really worth what you're asking for, so you'd better lie.
This has been a great discussion, food for thought.
This has been a great discussion, food for thought.
Written by Jean, June 17, 2010
You were correct to retract this post. I was shocked that you condoned this behavior. While some commenters trivialize this practice as no big deal, even a little white lie is lying and not ok - anytime - including when seeking employment. Salary can be negotiated without lying. Honesty will not come back to haunt you in a background check.
Written by Paula, June 18, 2010
What a shame to retract the original article, but thankfully it's still up to read. I might have suggested just adding a caveat to the beginning like so many of those investing/money blogs do — "this does not constitute an endorsement to engage in behaviors individual readers may find unethical, illegal, or potentially self-defeating."
That being said, why is it HR's business what you've made in the past anyway? I'm happily self-employed so it's been a long time since I had to deal with this, but would it jeopardize the interview if a person countered with something like, "I make high $40's and I very much want to be on par with the national average of $52k." If I were interviewing someone to hire, I personally would be fine with that response.
Here's another wage gap to consider: people who start their careers during a recession are PERMANENTLY at a salary disadvantage to those who started their careers during boom times. I can't help it if I started my career during the recession of '90/'91 — yet when I was working regular salaried jobs, it became normal for me to make the same as my co-workers with years less experience than I had, and sometimes up to $10 per hour less than those who were just a few years older than me.
It seems obvious that basing one's salary at a new job on what you were making at your old job is the reason this occurs. Negotiating a salary based on current market rate seems a whole lot wiser, especially for those of us who started our working lives during an economic downtown. But will sticking to your guns on this issue during an interview jeopardize your chances at getting the job?
I'm so glad I'm self employed. Just writing about this makes me feel victimized.
That being said, why is it HR's business what you've made in the past anyway? I'm happily self-employed so it's been a long time since I had to deal with this, but would it jeopardize the interview if a person countered with something like, "I make high $40's and I very much want to be on par with the national average of $52k." If I were interviewing someone to hire, I personally would be fine with that response.
Here's another wage gap to consider: people who start their careers during a recession are PERMANENTLY at a salary disadvantage to those who started their careers during boom times. I can't help it if I started my career during the recession of '90/'91 — yet when I was working regular salaried jobs, it became normal for me to make the same as my co-workers with years less experience than I had, and sometimes up to $10 per hour less than those who were just a few years older than me.
It seems obvious that basing one's salary at a new job on what you were making at your old job is the reason this occurs. Negotiating a salary based on current market rate seems a whole lot wiser, especially for those of us who started our working lives during an economic downtown. But will sticking to your guns on this issue during an interview jeopardize your chances at getting the job?
I'm so glad I'm self employed. Just writing about this makes me feel victimized.
Written by Jake, June 18, 2010
Some companies *might* check the salary but most do not. They simply don't have the time nor the ability too.
In fact most companies are not about to tell a competitor what they are paying their previous employee.
In fact most companies are not about to tell a competitor what they are paying their previous employee.
Written by Ro, June 18, 2010
I am also glad Daily Worth retracted the article. There are better ways of negotiating a fair salary. Starting a relationship with an employer by lying would be grounds for dismissal most places I've worked. I was facing a situation where I was desperate to leave my last employer for various reasons. Though I was desperate, I interviewed well and my enthusiasm for the next employer's opportunity translated into a 12% raise without too much negotiation.
It is possible to negotiate if you have done your homework about the company you are interviewing with, express your enthusiasm for winning the position, and can demonstrate that you have a record of achieving goals for your company.
Also, going to Salary.com and websites like this can arm you with the appropriate salary range for the position you're interviewing for.
I have been "low balled" before on interviews and I will write- off a company that would try to hire someone for far below the market rate for the skills and experience they have advertised for.
It is possible to negotiate if you have done your homework about the company you are interviewing with, express your enthusiasm for winning the position, and can demonstrate that you have a record of achieving goals for your company.
Also, going to Salary.com and websites like this can arm you with the appropriate salary range for the position you're interviewing for.
I have been "low balled" before on interviews and I will write- off a company that would try to hire someone for far below the market rate for the skills and experience they have advertised for.
Written by anney, June 18, 2010
I find it so amusing that most of the commentators on this article are women and the dominant voice is that of shock and appall that anyone would LIE (gasp!) about their previous salaries. And then the NY Times writes about this very post and the heated debate it sparked and the majority of the commentators are ADVOCATES for increasing your salary by whatever means possible. And guess what? Most of the commentators over there are MEN! ha! Again, just another testament to why women are creating their own gender gap. Unfortunately business is a tough world and the nice guy almost always loses.
That said, I agree with most of the comments at NY Times that say that asking for previous salaries should be illegal and that you should decline answering. It would NOT be unethical to say I am worth $X and this is what I would like.
That said, I agree with most of the comments at NY Times that say that asking for previous salaries should be illegal and that you should decline answering. It would NOT be unethical to say I am worth $X and this is what I would like.
Written by Amanda (DailyWorth Founder), June 18, 2010
@Paula - "This does not constitute an endorsement to engage in behaviors individual readers may find unethical, illegal, or potentially self-defeating."
Thank you! We often have and will continue to publish first accounts, the raw details, for readers to learn from. You're on the money with that lingo. I think I'll add it to today's email, which is meant to be funny, but I bet could be misconstrued.
Thank you! We often have and will continue to publish first accounts, the raw details, for readers to learn from. You're on the money with that lingo. I think I'll add it to today's email, which is meant to be funny, but I bet could be misconstrued.
Written by Joe, June 18, 2010
I dont think inflating your salary to a company is morally wrong. Most big companies are essentally psychopaths. They want you only for what they can get from you and will fire you when they dont need you. They have no heart. If they are willing to pay you what you ask for-thats what you are worth to them. It doesnt matter what you were getting before.
Written by Jen, June 20, 2010
That's ok, gronup, (June 15, 2010) I don't mind being the only one in a crowd that has good ethics. It makes me stand out as someone more valuable.
Written by Irene, June 24, 2010
Well, I think that this debate has probably been...debated, and there is little left to add, but I thought I would just say a few things.
1) I personally know Amanda, and she is a VERY ethically minded woman who is a little horrified to have stirred up controversy about this (though frankly, I think a little controversy can be good for business).
2) There is a difference between lying and negotiating, and it is all in the details. what I mean is, if you are making $45K a year at your current job, and an interviewer asks what your current salary is, I think it is fair to say "I currently earn in the high 4s, but I am interested in increasing my salary to the low 5s". I think saying "I make $50K" is probably not a great idea, but I don't think it will earn you a spot in Dante's inferno either.
3) I think that to earn the same as men in this world, women have to negotiate MORE and HARDER than men, because of societal expectations (held by both genders) about the worth of women vs. men. So it is a real shame that women negotiate LESS and SOFTER. When I was in salary negotiations for my current job, I cited the salaries of men in the department, of other (higher) salaries from other job offers I was considering, and of salaries for comparable positions in other cities. I still only increased the offer by $10K, only to later learn that a man in my department had been offered essentially the same job at the same time for $5K more. Grrr! Let's fight for our rights, ladies!!
1) I personally know Amanda, and she is a VERY ethically minded woman who is a little horrified to have stirred up controversy about this (though frankly, I think a little controversy can be good for business).
2) There is a difference between lying and negotiating, and it is all in the details. what I mean is, if you are making $45K a year at your current job, and an interviewer asks what your current salary is, I think it is fair to say "I currently earn in the high 4s, but I am interested in increasing my salary to the low 5s". I think saying "I make $50K" is probably not a great idea, but I don't think it will earn you a spot in Dante's inferno either.
3) I think that to earn the same as men in this world, women have to negotiate MORE and HARDER than men, because of societal expectations (held by both genders) about the worth of women vs. men. So it is a real shame that women negotiate LESS and SOFTER. When I was in salary negotiations for my current job, I cited the salaries of men in the department, of other (higher) salaries from other job offers I was considering, and of salaries for comparable positions in other cities. I still only increased the offer by $10K, only to later learn that a man in my department had been offered essentially the same job at the same time for $5K more. Grrr! Let's fight for our rights, ladies!!
Written by Sara, July 02, 2010
Employers will always lowball first. There is always room for negotiation and they expect this. Whenever you're offered a job, you gotta consider time that this will take away from your personal life, benefits, vacation, what you were making at your previous job, current market value, what type of raise you would be getting if you were staying, commute, cost of living raise, and add all this to your first negotiation. Always always always sit on your first offer and come back with a counter offer. NEVER take the first one you get. Ever. I never have.
Written by Pam, July 03, 2010
I am a woman who owns several companies. I expect people coming to work for me to be honest, sincere, decent and authentic. I insist on a high degree of accoutability from everyone in my organization and from myself as well.
I don't advise anyone to lie about past salaries and/or past performance. Bring your most authentic self to the negotiating table. If you want $50K a year, for example, let the interviewer know that you want $50K a year and that you are willing to take the necessary steps to make that happen to include training, more education, etc, etc.
Be true to yourself first. Leave foolish behavior at the door. My business partners and I have been around the block a few times. We appreciate and recognize honest efforts. We do not support little white lies. We do not support dishonesty period.
I don't advise anyone to lie about past salaries and/or past performance. Bring your most authentic self to the negotiating table. If you want $50K a year, for example, let the interviewer know that you want $50K a year and that you are willing to take the necessary steps to make that happen to include training, more education, etc, etc.
Be true to yourself first. Leave foolish behavior at the door. My business partners and I have been around the block a few times. We appreciate and recognize honest efforts. We do not support little white lies. We do not support dishonesty period.
Written by Mike Hunt, July 23, 2010
To address the HR people on this board- the way to avoid problems with a background check is to never write your salary or expected salary on any application. Always write 'negotiable'. In negotiations keep all information verbal but make sure you have a consistent story that can be backed up if you are called out on it. Lie as much as you can back up with confidence, it's a credibility issue. In theory you can go as high as the company can afford to pay, too high and there may be no deal.
The best way to get more salary is to use items that are hard to value, like unvested stock options, performance shares, profit sharing, etc that are time based so that if you were to leave your current company you would lose out on this- if the other party is really interested in you then this will drive up your value.
Remember you have the most negotiating power when you start a new job and you also have more power if you are already working and give the perception that you want the new job but if the deal isn't right you don't mind staying.
One last thought- if you get paid well and do a great job, why would some neurotic in HR be poring over your application to try to find a white lie for which they can terminate you? If you are screwing up you will be let go and being caught in a technicality may be one of many ways to lose your job. As a CEO I can tell you that if people do a good job the company is happy to pay them more- it's a win - win situation.
-Mike
The best way to get more salary is to use items that are hard to value, like unvested stock options, performance shares, profit sharing, etc that are time based so that if you were to leave your current company you would lose out on this- if the other party is really interested in you then this will drive up your value.
Remember you have the most negotiating power when you start a new job and you also have more power if you are already working and give the perception that you want the new job but if the deal isn't right you don't mind staying.
One last thought- if you get paid well and do a great job, why would some neurotic in HR be poring over your application to try to find a white lie for which they can terminate you? If you are screwing up you will be let go and being caught in a technicality may be one of many ways to lose your job. As a CEO I can tell you that if people do a good job the company is happy to pay them more- it's a win - win situation.
-Mike
Written by Ffoeg, August 01, 2010
Specifically for jobs in Sales or Marketing, where "Mystery shopping", or cold calling via contacts whom the company will expect you to "fudge" or impersonate (lie) your way to the decision makers, deserve absolutely zero of your personal integrity when it comes to representing your previous salary. Perhaps you should check these simple scenarios with the hiring managers, before you decide what your previous salary was. In the unlikely event, when pushed, they characterise such tasks as requiring absolute honesty, then and only then should you be honest with them. If they call you on a misrepresented salary figure, you can bring up the "you remember when you said..." Touché. They will either have to accept the point (and even be impressed with your ballsy exaggeration), or be revealed as hypocrites.
Men in those situations will generally lie, you will be at a disadvantage if you don't.
Men in those situations will generally lie, you will be at a disadvantage if you don't.
